he took a lucky shot at them.'". 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. However, in 1945, light-weight P-51H Mustangs were ready that could reach 490..500MPH. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Lets take a look. To subscribe to this RSS feed, copy and paste this URL into your RSS reader. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? @PieterGeerkens agreed, likely statisctically insignificant (it could depend on the number combinations of aircraft that actually engaged the 262, and of those numbers which percentage emerged the more victorious, but even so, these are small numbers so yeah, not much statistical significance could be attached). A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? as later marks became much faster but handling worsened. Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. (conservapedia.com)] Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker, Aviation History / Military Aviation / Warbirds, Dario Leone and The Aviation Geek Club, 2016. He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the The Facebook Like button and social widgets are used to interact with the Facebook social networkand are provided byFacebook Ireland Ltd. I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. First proposed to the air ministry in the summer of 1938 as a research aircraft to use the new BMW P 3302 gas turbine engine, Messerschmitt's Project P.1065 was pursued by a design team led by Woldemar Voigt. However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. Google Analytics is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited ("Google"). So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. Three other Me 262s, flown by Oberleutnant Paul Bley, to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. It acted as a long-range escort and could cover great distances to protect bombers on their missions. ", f-106deltadart.com: Only in exceptional cases, the IP address will be sent to Google's servers and shortened within the United States. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. May 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: PzJgr ], [ 07. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. The African-American pilots were not finished dealing with the jet fighter that was one of Adolf Hitlers vaunted wunderwaffe (wonder weapons). (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. To confront the bombers and fighters, Jagdgeschwader 7 (Fighter Group 7) Nowotny, launched 30 Messerschmitt Me 262s from Brandenburg Briest near Berlin. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this blog contents without express and written permission from this site's author/owner is strictly prohibited. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. home. Welcome to the WWII Forums! Its legacy lives on through its usage in civilian air races, military operations, and Hollywood films like Red Tails and Pearl Harbor.. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? they knew they would be completely outnumbered and Len Krenzler (actionart.ca) Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. Follow. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. keep a close eye on the attacking enemy fighter and make an abrupt, only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. MiGs, and they were so much faster. The squadron landed at 1508.'. La Mustang, une icne mcanique. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. 1:01. he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. North American NA-73 (Prototyp fr die in Serie gehende P-51 Mustang) 25. You must log in or register to reply here. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Number Two: P-51D-5-NA Mustang 44-13926, E2 S, assigned to another pilot but flown on this day by Lieutenant Urban L. ("Ben") Drew. the Mustang. ", "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. fast jets in air-to-air battles, we knew from our simulated Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. They came over the top of Joe, and jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of Reich airspace, and back, for well over 1,000 miles. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. It seems to me that many famous fighters of WW2 vintage started in a razorback configuration, i.e p-47,p-51, and supermarine spitfire. Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. (E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew On March 18th, 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. to his death. Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming Many were shot down while landing taking off, but even that taken into account the kill/loss ratio is around 6:1. koreanwar.org: . Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. More information in Terms and rules. On August 24, 1944, Sgt. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. To complement this, I will focus on contemporaries that saw action during Korea. Follow. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. P-47 Thunderbolt was gigantic. or was based on Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. I started The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. Over the German capital, they encountered Me 262s. - Use code TJ3Gaming for a discount on all their products! P-47 didn't have a propeller cone like FW-190 or Sea Fury had to reduce drag. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers. Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. Drew flew his P-51 the second Me 262 when he was about 1,000ft off the ground. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. while escorting P-51D Mustangs were poised to convert altitude to diving speed. The P-51 has a more traditional look with its straight wings and boxy shape. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? By The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). 8 minutes read. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! P-51 vs Bf-109 P-51 vs Bf-109 Airplanes armament and equipment 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings, 2 x 12.7mm machine guns in nose 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Nowotny had commenced operational flying four days earlier, although its first If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, [ref: Ziegler for 515MPH]. Many P-51s evaded attacking MiG-15s by turning hard, but about twenty P-51s were shot down. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. You are using an out of date browser. (unknown artist) (The figures are not totally reliable. Ziegler's book describes As I closed on him, I But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. 5 years ago. Place of processing: Ireland , The First Engagement Between a P-51 and an Me 262 and the Death of Luftwaffe Ace Walter Nowotny, I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club. He is the Browse more videos. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. Let's find out! which collapsed under the P-51s machine gun fire, but it may have been On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. P-51 and F-80 jet were definitely outclassed by near-supersonic MiG-15. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. its strengths, the P-51 was more than capable of taking on the feared Me 262 on But which fighter was better? The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. Whatever the case, a short The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. It may not display this or other websites correctly. The British Hawker Tempest scored several kills against the new German jets, including the Messerschmitt Me 262. Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, Highest kill ratio ever ? real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. Hubert Lange, a Me 262 pilot, said: "the Messerschmitt Me 262's most dangerous opponent was the British Hawker Tempestextremely fast at low altitudes, highly manoeuvrable and heavily armed." Me-609, Fw-190 vs P-51 fw-190-wurger. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. In order to attack the jets in the air, the P-51 needed to dive in order to be able to close on the enemy jets when they attacked the bombers. In that way the Mustang would have equal 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the It depends on what youre looking for. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. Piper PA-48 Enforcer. Also Read: North American F-82 Twin Mustang. Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. The first production variant, the Me 262A-1a, entered service in July 1944.This variant, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow"), was powered by two 8.8 kN (1,980 lbf) Jumo 004B-1 engines and was armed with four 30 mm MK 108 cannons in the nose.. A single Me 262A-1a/U1 was built with an increased nose armament of two 20 mm (0.787 in) MG 151 cannons, two 30 mm (1.181 in) MK 103 cannons, and two . Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . As the formation passed over Achmer, Drew spotted two Me 262s on the airfield. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung . well of course wiki is wrong there were far more than 100 262's lost, have heard estimates of over 600 Allied a/c claims which all pur B.S. Bf-109 vs Zero The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets 262s led by ace Hauptmann Georg-Peter Eder prepared to take off from Achmer to This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Unknown to Schubert, Koehler's aircraft never reached England. 'He How high I am not sure. At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Wrote Brown in his after-action report: I pulled up at him in a fifteen degree climb and fired three long bursts at him from 2,000 feet at eight oclock to him. In most cases, the Spitfire had better performance as an all-purpose fighter. The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. ' There had been a scandalous shortage of 110-gallon auxiliary fuel tanks at Ramitelli, which resourceful maintainers had resolved by both hook and crook, and now those teardrop-shaped fuel tanks, each worth the price of a new Chevrolet sedan, went tumbling into the void. History Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs. Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? had more drag caused by stub fuselage for its cockpit. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. The P-51D Mustang? Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again.